Religious Discussion: Lisa and Pastor Dave

Dear Pastor Dave,  

This is Lisa Sabey, Rachel's mother.  I had communicated with Pierce about having lunch sometime with you and him to discuss your feelings about our church.  We hold no hard feelings whatsoever, but I would like to understand your feelings.  I suspect, as with all teenagers, he is focused on many other things and so has not replied.  That is fine.  He has explained also that you can be incredibly busy with work, and your business is not always predictable.  At a convenient time for you, would you be comfortable if my husband and I took you out to lunch to talk?  Pierce would be welcome to come to, that would be up to you.  The purpose of our lunch would be to understand each other, not to argue or prove anything.  In this world of much division, taking time to understand others is powerful.  I look forward to your reply.  Thanks, Lisa

Hi Lisa,

Yes it is true my work is quite hectic right now.  I have been working 60+ hours a week for over a month with plenty of late nights and weekends.  In fact I can barely even make it out to lunch with my wife one time each week.  So I really do not have time to schedule another lunch date.  I am also heavily involved in helping to relaunch a small church in Centennial.

Please understand, I had nothing directly to do with Pierce breaking up with Rachel.  In fact I did not know he was planning to do so until he told me after the fact.  I did caution him before officially asking Rachel out not because I suspected anything, but merely because as a Christian father I always stress two things about dating:

1) Dating is preparatory for marriage and should not be taken lightly
2) Shared religious beliefs is absolutely critical for a healthy relationship

Pierce really liked Rachel and he kind of glossed over these at the time, but when he realized how far apart he and Rachel were in their beliefs, he did the wise thing in breaking it off before they became too involved.  It is true I am no expert in Mormon theology, however, I do know there are enough deviations from the Christianity I follow to advise my children that a dating relationship outside our faith is neither healthy nor advisable.

You are probably wondering about these deviations, so I will provide only one as there is no reason to debate at great length.  In an 1897 speech, fourth LDS President Wilford Woodruff told how at a meeting in Kirtland, Ohio, a “leading man in the church” had admonished his contemporaries to confine their revelations to the Bible, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine and Covenants. Mormonism’s founder Joseph Smith responded by asking Brigham Young, who later became the second LDS prophet, to give his position on the matter. The story continues:

Brother Brigham took the stand, and he took the Bible, and laid it down; he took the Book of Mormon, and laid it down; and he took the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and laid it down before him, and he said: “There is the written word of God to us, concerning the work of God from the beginning of the world, almost, to our day.” “And now,” said he, “when compared with the living oracles those books are nothing to me; those books do not convey the word of God direct to us now, as do the words of a Prophet or a man bearing the Holy Priesthood in our day and generation. I would rather have the living oracles than all the writing in the books.” When he was through, Brother Joseph said to the congregation: “Brother Brigham has told you the word of the Lord, and he has told you the truth.”

Even if this were the only difference between our two faiths, the mere suggestion the teachings of "living oracle" such as "Joseph Smith" are superior to the Bible is enough for me to steer clear.  Please understand this has nothing to do with Mormonism, but everything to do with Christianity.  I advise all of my kids to date no one but a committed, Bible (only) believing Christian.  This means no Mormons, Muslims, Jehovah's Witnesses,  non-believer, etc.  This also rules out a large number of people who claim to be Christians (make believers), but deny Jesus Christ by their very lives.  Simply attending church does not meet my standards, which in this case I take from the Bible.

Also bear in mind I do not ask my kids to avoid being friends with people of other faiths.  In fact, I advise precisely the opposite; we cannot reach the lost and the sick unless we do hang out with them.  In the Air Force I had a great Mormon friend I worked with for many years.  I play rugby with many guys who are foul mouthed, beer guzzlers.  Serving, helping, praying for, and hanging out with all people is at the very core of Christianity.  However, dating and marrying within the faith is also core.

I would like to meet you someday, but lunch right now is a bit of a stretch until I can return to a normal forty hour week.  However, I would love to continue this dialogue via email in the meantime.

Peace and blessings,

-- David

Hi Pastor Dave,  Thanks for your email.  You impressed me with your timely, clearly written response.  I sensed no guile in your response, and I trust you as a person even though I have not met you.  Pierce impressed me with his faith, goodness and desire to do what is right.  I know that it was Rachel and Pierce that decided not to continue dating, and not you.   Pierce was very kind and gentle to Rachel, and we appreciate that.  Your schedule sounds daunting, but relaunching a small church sounds exciting.  Good luck on your endeavors.   I know God is real and I'm grateful that you are doing what you can to help others feel His love.

It would be great to continue this conversation via email.  Someday it would be wonderful to meet you and your family, but now is not the time.  I think the most important thing we can do is outline what we agree on.  These are what I feel are common denominators in our beliefs.  Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong in assuming these are your beliefs:

1.  God is loving, merciful and just.  

2.  Christ is the Savior of mankind.  He loves all people and understands their situation and needs.

3.  Christ has outlined standards.  Those standards are the "strait and narrow" path that leads to happiness and eternal life.  

4.  When we follow God's standards/commandments, we will be blessed.  When we do not, we have no promise.  The blessings are not necessarily in this life, but can be in the life to come.

5.  Our responsibility as believers in Christ is to "feed His sheep."  That means not only help others come to Christ, but to love them and help them in whatever way possible.  (As I understand, you have done this in California with your coffee shop.  Thank you for helping so many youth.)

6.  Baptism is symbolic of a new life.  New life (and renewed life) comes as we open our hearts to Christ's healing and live a life that shows our faith by helping others as Christ would.

7.  Family is the core unit of society and God wants us to do the best we can to secure our family in faith and kindness.  The closer aligned the husband and wife are in spiritual matters, the more likely the marriage will blossom as a rose.  Because of this, I absolutely agree with your prioritizing who you date.

8.  As told in the parable, "The Good Samaritan," and as you have lived, we are to love and interact and bless all we come across.  Just like you, I have friends who are Unitarians, Catholics, Protestants, Pentecostals, Muslims, Buddhists and agnostics.  I love each of them.  We have attended many different religious congregations and even contributed to their humanitarian efforts.

9.  God looks at the heart, and not the outward appearance.  I am so grateful for this understanding.  I love C.S. Lewis' book, "The Last Battle" because it portrays this concept powerfully.  Have your read it?

10.  God is so much greater than any of us--or all of us combined.  We do not understand everything, but we do understand He is real.

If there are common beliefs that you would like to add, that would be great.  This is a very limited list, but one I think we can both agree on.  I think understanding how similar we are before we discuss our differences is good.  

Now about the one difference that you identified:  We believe in modern day prophets.  This is true.  We also believe in The Bible, The Book of Mormon and The Doctrine of Covenants.  These are all mutually supportive. God is never changing, so his words are eternal.  However, the needs of His children is ever changing.  Just as he had prophets of old who were placed at the right places and the right times to "set his people free," so we believe he does today.  Although we are not enslaved by Egyptians, or in a 7 year famine, or besieged by our enemies, we are in a battle for our families and our faith.  One of the revelations our prophets have received is for families to try to eat dinners together and weekly have an evening set aside for only family time.  This is a time where we talk about spiritual things, play games together and laugh together.  It is a powerful time to bond our families together and with God.  I love that weekly meeting.

Pierce's first concern with Rachel's belief is when she told him she did not believe in Hell.  Now, Mormons DO believe in hell, but Rachel is trying to understand God and doesn't want anyone to suffer eternally.  Although she is doctrinally wrong, her heart is searching to understand how justice and mercy coexist.  She is searching and questioning and we are simply loving her and praying for God's help in teaching her.  However, our concept of Hell is smaller than your concept of Hell.  I would love to understand your concept of Hell.  

One of the reasons I feel so comfortable with my faith is because of my love for China.  I lived in China when I was 19 years old and feel in love with many of the people there.  Those Chinese were taught from 2 years old that a belief in God was superstitious and wrong.  They were never given an opportunity to "Come unto Christ."  But so many of those people wanted to find God.  I can't accept a loving God who is no respecter of people abandoning those billions of people because they did not profess their belief in Christ, when they had no opportunity to do such.  God is God to all people, and I believe there will be a time in the eternities when those people who did not profess Christ in this life will have an opportunity to "enter into his rest."

Well, I think I wrote too much.  I do yearn to understand any other concerns you have about my beliefs and I will listen to what you believe with an open heart and mind.

Thanks for your time in your very busy schedule.  Do not worry about answering this long email quickly.  

God Bless you, 

Lisa

Lisa's interaction with PastorDave about differences in our religions

Brian and David's apartment's "Count Your Many Blessings" on youtube

If you want to watch a fun rendition of "Count Your Many Blessings" click on here:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdOUUpfx7Po
If that doesn't work, go to youtube, then BYU Count Your Many Blessings"

Joshua's letter Sept 28

Joshua's letter Sept 28

I did receive a very nice letter from Brian. He told about a conversation he had with a teacher where little of the initial question was resolved but that the teachers sincerity of generosity and caring left an untellable mark on him. This true caring is the whole law of moses and the new law as well. True concern for another's well being and existence is the antithesis of sarcasm and shallow selfishness that is quite prevalent in the world and in myself. To purify our selves is the quest of life. Thank you Brian for the letter.

I had a miracle this week. Her name was Karla. She is a 23 year old women from Mexico. She has the Mexican black hair and Dandy's eyes. She is short and has the kind of sincerity that Brian talked about. She had received the missionary Discussions in Mexico but had never been baptized. She came to the US to be a nanny through some sort of program. Last week she found out that her parents would be separating. "No surprise" she said "but it doesn't ease the pain. My mom doesn't deserve this. I was really angry with my Dad but I can't judge him, my parents aren't perfect. I miss my family" She continued to explains that the day we knocked on the door was the day after she had found out. She knew that God was looking out for her. I knew that that was true. As Nephi knew, I do not know the meaning of all things nevertheless I do know that God loveth his children. I was sobered by the realization of who I represent. I hadn't wanted to track that street because I didn't think we would find anyone home. But we had planned it the night before and so we went ahead and did it. I do no know what would have happened if we hadn't. I wonder how many people we haven't been there fore that we could have. We are in the work of saving souls it is a sobering and serious task. It is the profession of our profession. Hurrah for Israel! She came to church on Sunday and we are meeting with her Tuesday.

There is a family in the ward that is struggling financially. They still have us over for dinner and are willing to do anything for us. I hate to ask them to do anything for us. All I can see is what it will cost them to help. I see the money each mile will cost and each "pork chop". But the ward is promised blessings as they help the missionaries. I am caught in a catch 22. Do I ask them for help and be another burden or ask for nothing and deny them the ability to help. I don't know what to do a lot but I do love this family. they are the Baks. I hope and know that God will bless them for their goodness. I understanda little bit more about the women that gave a penny to the temple and Christ says that she has given more then all the others for she has given all she hath. This is true of the Bak family. they serve with all they have. If they can they will help and will do all they can to help. They give their all, and there is nothing less ask of us all and may we all truly give our all every time we serve or pay tithing or fast offering or anything (not all our money but with our blessing, with out reservation--all we hath.)

To answer Dad's question about food. I eat spaghettia lot. Sometimes lasagna. It depends on the meal. Breakfast I normally have cereal. Lunch I have a sandwich or something else that sounds good at the time. Dinner is normally at a members house. It is often some noodle thing unless it is a wealthierfamily then it is anything from hamburgers to orange chicken. I haven't eaten anything crazy yet. Most of the members are originally from Idaho or Utah anyhow.

I can't remember the other questions, sorry I'll try and remember to bring the letter with me next time. I do really enjoy your letters. I also like hearing about your work and cases. Have you gone further with Vilo Pueblo yet?

WE ran into a guy who wanted us to find him some legal help. I wished you were there. He is a nice guy but from what I gathered he pulled over to the side of a road because he was having cat troubles. A teenager was looking for a book in his back seat while driving and rear ended him. I assume this man named Dave didn't want to accept any settlements and he didn't have very good representation and probably had some sort of temper or exaggerated something and so he lost credibility in front of the jury or judge and so lost on some technicality about he didn't have his emergency lights on (which he swears he did).That's my diagnosis. I feel bad for the guy. Both he and his wife have hospital bills and he is fighting trough a recent diagnosis of some kind of cancer. He had the police report and everything. I think he is a nice guy and feels he didn't receive justice and now cant get back on his feet. I pity him and wish I could help some how. But I assume he did receive justice maybe not Justice but I'll bet he brought it upon himself.
thats my court case for the week.
Well good bye family--god be with you tell we meet again.
Elder Sabey
ps how are things with Rachel and Pierce. and how is Tennis and Track going
pps I haven't heard anything about ali. We are trying to teach someone from Iraq but there is a very largelanguige barrier. (maybe we could fly him out... jk)

Josh sent this poem through snail mail

Jack and Jill and the Magic Bean Stalk

Why did Jack go up the hill to fetch that pail of water?
To water the seed
he had received
from the tip-pod-man
    a cain in hand
Jack gave him all he had
 no heart to barter
but he broke his crown
as he fell down
I think Jill bruised her heel.
From the bean a serpent sprung
and touched the sun
It's pretty big to be called a twig
by those who wouldn't look,
pointed and shook,
said Listen Jack
we can't go back
But Jack set out to climb the vine
and Jill came fumbling after.
The old man's seed carried the deed--
It seems the tripod-man had a plan
so Jack feall and the tale began.

Rachel and Pierce

Rachel's "Being Mormon"

Rachel had a boyfriend for a week. His name is Pierce Westfall. As Rachel always said, he was very sweet. However, his father did not want him to date anyone who was not of the same religious beliefs, and because Rachel is Mormon, they could not date. However, he was a fun week-long boyfriend. Here are pictures of their Homecoming date.

The way they broke up is this: Pierce had not told his father that Rachel was Mormon. When she found that out, Rachel said, "If you don't tell him, then I will." Pierce said, "Then we can't date."

Lisa's thoughts about why every student should have been invited to Listen to President Obama's speech

What I appreciated about EMS: Calmness in the midst of the storm. Opportunity for the teachers to show the speech—trusting their decisions. Daniel saw it yesterday. There is a good, calm feeling in EMS and I trust the teachers and administrators there.

Why I am talking today: Moderates need to speak more. It’s too often the extremes that are vocal, but they do not represent the populus, they just are more vocal.

Why I believe all students should have been invited to listen to President Obama’s address to students:

1. Although I did not vote for Obama, he is our president, our leader. We have become a divided country and “No house divided against itself can stand.” We need to be an example of people who listen thus showing respect for others. It was not a political speech, but a motivational speech. But if the speech had political undertones, I would still feel the same.
2. There needs to be a resurgence of respect for authority. We have ample examples of disrespect for authority:
1. The Press and Congress towards President Bush then President Obama
2. Athletes
3. Students
4. Parents at sporting events towards refs
3. Open mindedness is vital for our country’s domestic and international future. When we agree with others, it’s easy to listen to them. What we must learn is to understand others who have different views/perspectives/beliefs. It’s powerful to seek for understanding of others and help others understand us in mature ways. Steven Covey’s first step to success is to, “Seek first to understand then to be understood.” This requires listening respectfully.
4. We want to be the example of believing in the students’ ability to listen, understand, and identify what they agree with and what they disagree with and then be able to talk about the issues in a calm, educated manner. The danger in the Middle East is the fact that generations have refused to understand the other side. That is happening in our country. By allowing fearful parents to deny most of the students an opportunity to listen to someone a few of the parents don’t agree with, we are following on the same path as the Arabs and Jews.
5. We want to find good in people who have different beliefs than we have: I’m a Mormon. I’ve been surprised and disappointed in how many people have been told falsehoods about my church. But what is most discouraging is that they are also told to not listen to Mormons because “Mormons are part of a cult.” This systemic concept—If I don’t agree with someone, I don’t want to listen to them or have my children listen to them—is very dangerous. I’ve always been taught to find truth everywhere I can and to respect that truth. This fear of understanding the other side underminds democracy.
6. In a divided country, we need to represent a powerful moderate, respectful front.
7. In a diverse global economy, we need to represent calmness and respect for others who are politcally very different than we are: China. If we cannot show respect to our president in our own country, how will we learn to show respect for leaders of other countries?
8. Relationships are more important than tasks—our president is more important than 20 minuntes of a lesson plan
9. We have a president who is worthy of great respect. Obama’s accomplishment as an individual are impressive! There is power in his example. Let’s be open to good in all people and be an example of that in the schools.

Joshua Sabey's Letter

We will put Joshua Sabey's missionary letters here.> Subject: Sept 21 Mormon vs moron
> From: jsabey3@myldsmail.net
> To: sabey8@msn.com
> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 17:07:41 +0000
>
> Well first things first. I didn't recieve a picture of Rachel and her date. I would like to recieve it. And in response to mom's question about Obama and Rachelss experience with Pierce, I had an experience about a month ago that irritated me like a crick in the neck for the longest time. We had scheduled to meet with an 18 year old boy who had had some questions and was fairly interested in hearing what we had to say. We showed up to the appointment and his dad met us. He said, "I dont force religone on my kids and I won’t have you guys forcing religion on them either." With annoyance and distain he told us to leave. I wouldn't have left if my companion hadn't practically pulled me away. I was absolutely indignant. I wanted to pound down his door and tell him what a fool he was. You are forcing religion if you are not allowing him a chance to expand his mind. That is ignorance and we cannot be free in ignorance (Thomas Jefferson). Freedom is the ability to accept input and do what we will with it. To reject what is evil and accept what is good. But it is a dangerous path. "A little learning is a dangerous thing." Censurship is important. We sensor movies that we watch and things that destroy. We cannot simply stand against the pricks; come what may, but must with wisdom cut our way. And so it becomes confusing. We must expand our mind but not so far as to exceed our soul and thus perish. They must grow together. When you have tasted a fruit and tasted it was rotten it is of no good to contiue eating rotten fruit. But so many people today are like children and look at a dish they've never tried or learned about and say “I don’t like it.” Or they trust the other kids rather than their parents. They are ignorant and are led by the few people who seek to control. It is a mess when we get into censoring and the consequences which is why freedom is so important but equally important is tolerance. I will let you debate amongst yoursleves the implications of that stament but it suficeth me for now to say that I am ashamed that LPS didn't watch the president’s speech. That is truly shameful. If a parent had disagreed with some element the school could have let them adress it and present the antithesis. You are taking the kids out of their own history. The president is our president and out leader and is speeking to them. He would not be so foolish to present a politically charged agenda to children. What damage that would do to his agenda. If the parents truly thought he would and truly wanted to "bring him down" they should have let it happen and used it against him... But possibly more disgusting to me is this Peirce character. Not because it is of more signigicance but because it is with my family and my sister and my religion and my God. What a little boy he seems to me. He couldn't tell his dad? What is there to be ashamed of? It would be understandable if they married within the religion or with in the covenant but I presume that if it had been another girl from some other popular Luthrane denomination that Peirce would have been fine. What do they disagree with? That we don’t drink... or that we choose to abstain from coffee. Or abstance until marrige? Perhaps our stand on grace and mercy. We believe that faith without works is dead. That there is no such thing as faith without works. That faith and works are so inseperably connected that to remove one is to destroy the other. How are we to know (see) god? (1john3) "we shall be like him" I challenge anyone to understand god without works. I challenge anyone to have chairty without works. It is not an internal thing but external. We lose oursleves. Religone is external not for show but for growth and to get out of ourselves. Perhaps they disagree with our view of the trinity which has far more evidence within the bible than any other interpretation and for logic’s sake alone should be understood. The trinity is an example of dangerous ideas. People dont realize that they are even being influenced by men’s interpritation hundreds of years ago that has been thrust upon them and colored their vision. They know not the source. Perhaps they disagree with our emphasis on family or knowlege or hard work or charitiy or diligence or mercy or faith in the lord Jesus Christ? I want to hear why they despise us and why they despised the savior of old and despise him stilll today. Just give me one solid point of doctrine that any real criticism deserves to stand. I ask for one! Okay I'm over that. (Maybe you should "censure" who you forward this too ha ha ha)
>
> We had a lot of lessons this week which was a blessing after a fairly dry spell. I don’t feel like I'm a great missionary. I don’t contact well because my mind is failry open to ideas and I don’t see things all that black and white and so I have trouble making bold assertions sometimes--I know that is hard to believe. But I see how people are right and then attempt to critique it slightly to make it more right. I end up wasting time with someone who won’t be interested ever and listening to them monologue about something that is really not that important. But our lessons were good. We are teaching a man (mike smith) who I think is really a good guy. But he questions all his good. He talks about revenge but knows deep down that it is pointless. His wife and he got in an argument and he said to us that it was probally all his fault and I think he was right but he just questions all his right answers because he doesn't have the sure foundation. He is very philisophical and sometimes I get too philisophical with him. He is a good man and I respect him.
> WEll times up. Goodluck Cubby and Matt with your sports. Cubby Matt Rachel Ali.... I’m waiting for the letters that tell me how much you miss and love me... Hoorah for Israel, ere the red sun rises...
> Elder Sabey

> P.S. Sister Howell has created a Mission Blog for your families. Please forward the link: http://mmmmiracles.blogspot.com/ Missionaries are not allowed to look at the blog; however, your parents can save you pictures, etc. from all over the mission . . . I will be explaining different mission traditions, etc. at the bottom of the blog, they can click on older entries (from last week). They can return to the newer posts, when it says click on new entry. Clicking on a picture with their cursor enlarges it; they can also download it or drag it to a photo library. All phoned-in miracles will be recorded on the blog.

Sept. 23, 2009

Happy Fall! The Mark and Lisa family is getting on the blogging train! Or, at least we want to try. The Happenings of our family:

Brian is at BYU studying English, Chinese and Philosophy. He really likes a young lady, but whether or not it is facebook "in a relationship" stage is unclear.

David is at BYU trying to decide his major. He is "in a relationship" for two weeks to see how things feel. I don't even know if he has a facebook so I can't check it.

Josh is on a mission in Minneapolis

Matt is undefeated in his4-doubles tennis matches

Rachel is passionate about dance and is a part of a weekly 2 hour after school legal defense team

Daniel is super busy with soccer, track and field and a play. He starts school at 7:21 and finishes sometimes after 6:00.

Mark is grateful when he is not overwhelmed with work and loves preparing church lessons. He just finished his first triathlon in 1: 39. He feels like he is getting younger and younger.

Lisa is loving working on putting her father's Chinese materials online, teaching Chinese twice a week at the high school and keeping her home in relative order. The cooking is a necessity, not a love.